Braindumps = mcse2003 useless?

[Sincraft]

Ok, call me stupid (go ahead!) - but I didn't realize there were braindumps or anything like that out there. Now, I cant tell you how many guys I worked with that had their visa's from other countries that claimed certification but couldn't even install drivers for a network card back in the win98 client days.

Well - I've been on here for a few days and determining what to do about my reentering the market after switching tracks for a bit, by taking the LONG HARD time to learn the materials to get my MCSE2003.

I then type in google - study guides + cbt and next thing I know I am on website READING THE ACTUAL QUESTIONS FOR THE 70-290 TEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sad thing is, most of the people on there bragging about passing were from the countries where I've had the displeasure of working with these guys (cause they work cheap) and then having to do all their work for them..of course...

So my questions is two fold...
1. is it even worth getting a cert now since m$ didn't think to change the questions VERY OFTEN to cause one to ACTUALLY LEARN the materials?
2. is there any reason why someone who already knows the stuff but doesnt test well, shouldn't do this themselves

I sure as heck am not entering into a slippery slope of doing such a thing. If you view my previous post, I purchased , at borders book store, the official m$ 2003 core exam book pack so I plan on utilizing my purchase and ..

personallly...
I feel there is CONFIDENCE that you get from actually knowing the material and haivng the test to prove it. That confidence will be conveyed on a daily basis and of course, more importantly when it comes time ot interview.

What are YOUR thoughts on this? I'd love to hear from you all.

EDIT: Is there anything on m$ website discussing why they haven't spent their efforts on retaining the randomness of these test? All the effort put into the software alone and the professionals that support their products, WHY NOT then support the professionals time and effort? I'm lost and confused on this.

S

[jsprague]

Answers to your questions...

1) Of course it is worth getting an MS certification if you have the real world experience to match it. The MCSE doesn't hold the prestige that it did 8 years ago, but it is still a good cert to have for those that should have it.

2) I know a person that doesn't test well that never cheated on an exam. In fact, he is currently preparing for a real estate exam that he will not cheat on as well. I know stories of other people with various learning disabilities that have passed exams without cheating as well. I realize that some people test better than others, but in a way using that as an excuse is a cop out.

To answer your last comment, I guess I can disclose some information (now that enough time has passed) that will do nothing more than show an insiders confusion on this point as well.

A few years ago, I spent a lot of time working with Microsoft to try to stop the cheat sites. We did sting operations where we allowed some of the larger offenders to advertise here despite our rules on this. These advertisers paid us via wire transfer because they were located in Pakistan and we sent their banking information along with anything else we could gather to Microsoft. Microsoft had me work with a task force that included representatives from several government agencies including the FBI, IRS, DOJ, etc.. They kept telling me that they were really close to busting these people overseas, but nothing ever happened.

My understanding of what happened is that the FBI was just way too busy with 9/11 work and decided that this was not a priority. Apparently, not too long after this, Dave Schwartzendruber (Microsoft's head of exam security) either left or was let go from MS.

What I have seen since this time period is that Microsoft believes that they can stop cheating by changing the way they test. Specifically, they recently introduced simulation questions into a few of their exams. I believe that their new certification track for Windows Vista will heavily rely on this testing technique. Unfortunately, this isn't going to stop the cheating. At the very least, people will post exactly what their simulations were on braindump sites. At worst, these people that have made millions of dollars off of cheaters will produce software emulating the exact exams.

So without hopes of legal action against these people and a deluded Microsoft, we do the best we can by shutting that element out of our site and educating people about the issue. People that cheat fail in real life almost all of the time. Those people you described that couldn't install a driver probably didn't make it the long haul and that is the 2nd best reason (behind morality) not to cheat.


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[Sincraft]

Valued response!
I pose to you this simple scenerio.

M$ spends countless millions on developing their software, testing it, implementing and testing it again - creating the certs and the training materials around it - market etc...
Now m$ may not care much about the little IT guy that is disgruntled because he has his cert value lowered, but in this stage of the game, I would think that M$ is catering more toward the professional so that they have the field support when it comes to 'hey lets add another server, what software should we use'..


Here's the MAGIC question then - simple logic:
-Why does M$ not just make the tests MUCH more random. I mean, for god's sake, even my high school science teacher put 200 questions into a pool and had a randomly generated test created by his computer picking 20 of the questions. Eventually, after 10 years - the students could 'dump' all the questions (if they were that wel organized to pass it down to the next classes). However, as he stated, at that point...
You know the material if you are memorizing it.

-So at that point, if m$ can not randomize it anymore because it covers 'everything', then wouldn't by memorizing the questions and scenerios - wouldn't that person know the material in actuality?

Yes their skills would be diluted, but not much more than someone that took the test and passed 'legit' without any real world experience.

Yes - a person would have to have experience with the gui...about 2 days of tinkering behind a server for a COMPLETE newbie...

---
I agree with you that in the real world, they MAY be exposed. I have no permanent employment because of the fake mcse's that wormed their way in and learned on the job. After all, most of the people that did the hiring didn't know much - so instead of hiring 2 admins, they have to hire 5 not knowing that it takes that many to resolve the problems because the guys they have don't know much.
But then, like I said, most of the ones I experienced were coming in on h1b's from other countries working cheap...so in the long run the results are the same to the company - they just have 5 guys doing it instead of 2 for the same pay. pftt.

This is killing me. I really want to push foward with my training for the 2003 cert, but the whole time I will be thinking of how diluting it is now. There is not much that can convince me otherwise, less a personal response from Ole Billy boy himself telling me that hte new tests will be highly randomized and using the high tech method my old high school science teacher used, to ensure quality testing results.

S

[kidvelvet]

[jsprague]

[Sincraft]

You guys all make some good points. Especially about the calc ?'s.

I can continue this point. Although not the same, for example. You can take a test on how to lay marble tile, how to remove and replace a toilet, how to do plumbing etc for renovation - but when you actually go to do it, it will take you literally 10x the time and more money than if a professional did it with experience and a 3 dimensional model in their head as to how things work!

anyway ... the point is there is much to do about things. However when it comes to a simulation, sometimes a simulation is as real as it gets...if they produces simulations for testing, I think that would help the cred of the certs.

In my area, paper mcse are typically european-white/american's. Although we do get a share of paper mcse's from 3rd world countries in on h1b's. We are a large mix of blue collar and white collar, so there is much frowning on outsourcing and even, buying a foreign car (I bought a nissan frontier 06 and get mean looks all the time - it's more american made than the competing chevy lol!)

Ok - so , well...guess I'm going to get back to reading. I wish I had more time to dedicate to reading this books. Between renovations to my house and working 50 hours per week, it gets a bit difficult. ;(

S

[znakomi]

I believe that 80% of the people who persue certs do it to measure themselves. That's primarily why I do it, secondarily i do it to keep my job, thirdly, I do it to get another job if I get laid off from this one.

There's jerks everywhere, unfortunatly, we have to share the planet with them. They cheat, and such is life. Actually, we're surrounded by folks who are "faking it" at their jobs, and often certified or not, they pay no attention to the first rule which is "do no harm." A person, certified or not who follows this rule can be an asset to a company, and one to whom this rule means nothing will be an incompetent, whether he's certified or not, whether he's been in the industry 10 years or 1. Some people are just walking disaster areas, and some people are fakers.

If you're not a walking disaster area, nor a faker, pay no attention to those who say you are. If you want a cert go for it, do it for yourself. Ans if a non mcse comes up to you explaining that it's possible to get one of these without experience, pay no attention to him. Take a notice of folks who dis MCSE certs, although they haven't taken on the challenge of certifying themselves, they are experts on how easy it is to get one. Conversly, notice how many folks with MCSE's (experts on how tuff the cert is), and they will tell you how much their certs mean to them, because they measured themselves and lived up to their hopes.

For example, if you took just the time I put into my home lab working for my second MCSE, it was at least a year of concentrated experience just at home. I'm fairly smart, but I could not have passed the exams without this years experience at home (spread out over 2.5 years).

This home experience has covered the completion of every exercise, every set up of every configuration in every objective. Yet somehow, if I had additonally sat at a help desk for a year resetting passwords over and over again, my cert would somehow be worth a lot more because I have a years experience. Maybe this misperception is fair, maybe it's not, but it exists among people who are not themselves MCSE's.

The point here is that the exam objectives cover every aspect of Windows networking, and everyone who takes these tests must master a lions share of objectives that are not in their normal duties. For example, how often does someone responsible for DNS servers for 5 years have to design Active Directory infrastructures? How often do they have to configure VPN access? How often do they have to config IPSec communications? How often do they have to config the 80% of the objectives that are NOT DNS? If you can't design AD infrastructures, there is a whole slew of exam objectives your will never pass on. I don't care what one's specialty is or how long they do it, every one of them will have to hit the books...HARD... to cover the 80% of the exam objective that are out of their realm of daily chores. In other words, people taking the exams are depending on book knowledge for most of the objectives in the exams because the don't have to perform 80% of the objectives in their daily activities.

...yet somehow, this experience resetting passwords and untangling OE misconfiguration makes all the difference in the world as to the value of your MCSE to a non MCSE, only an MCSE who has done it himself will know what your MCSE means to you, non-MCSE's don't have it in their experience to understand what it was you did, they think you can learn it without experience. They are not bad people or stupid, thy simply son't know what it is to get an MCSE...if they got MCSE's themselves, this perception wiuld of course change. They'd join the ranks of MCSE's who never downgrade another's MCSE cert.

That's MHO and I know folks differ with me. I say listen to the MCSE's who devalue your cert, (I doubt you'll find even one), not the non-MCSE's who devalue your cert. You worked too damn hard, you know better, because aquiring your MCSE is in your experience, not there's.

And there's incompetent fakers everywhere, they don't have anything to do with someone who worked hard for their cert, fakers don't work hard for anything, they're just all mouth.

Aquiring an MCSE without cheating is a huge undertaking, it ALWAYS means a lot, it's never something to diminish or take lightly, it stands on it's own significant merit. MCSE's know this because it's in their experience.
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[znakomi]

Also, fakers are easy to spot. If you're worried your MCSE is not worth persuing because the percieved value of the cert has been downgraded, ask or offer to speak with the IT staff if you feel the initial interviewer has questions about the validity of your cert. If requested cheerfully, it can only be a couple of additional plus's in your interview(:

Go for it It has five fold more the personal rewards than just the "gaining employment" value(:

It wards off alzheimers too
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MCSE / MCITP-EA

[zenboy]

What's the point of getting the MCSE if all you want to do is pass it without the knowledge to show it. When the time comes to those with the mcse to prove themselves, they better know what the h3ll they're talking about. It is unfortunate in this darn age that the IT industry needs to re-validate the MCSE cert when the cert itself should be the validation of knowledge. How ironic!
I'm currently are studying MCSE right now, and I'm feeling quite good inside to know that I have gained a thorough understanding of MS products than before. To be honest, I am concerned about what I don't know more than whether I will pass the exams.
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[MaxxTheMonk]

I'd have to agree that taking these exams are hard, with no real experience at all you'll have no chance in hell, but having load of experience also doesn't cut it, I took this 270 whit a class of 20 ppl and only 8 passed, 4 dropped out. over a periode of 6 weeks, even though the diffrence to real life experience and the "paper" knowledge after the course you wouldn't know whitch was whitch. I my self was a freshly made software engineer, with little real life XP experience, durring this course I actully made me the "real life experience" needed to pass, being this fast about it wasn't a good thing, since I lost most of the knowledge gained, but now I know where to look it up at least. So I guess you could call me a paper cert, but still I did better in real life then some of my more experienced peers. When I finally learned the golden rule. Attempt to not break stuff, that took me a month to learn though.
Now I'm planning to get me some server to get some real experience with 2003, through testing and eventually try for MCSA, since I feel proud of the MCP, and even learn much I figure that getting MSCA would teach me even more, and if I pass. I can brag about it
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70-270

[jsprague]

People won't consider you a paper cert for having an MCP. That is Microsoft's entry level designation. Paper certified refers to people that get higher level certs with no experience.

Even with real world experience, a person still has to study for these exams because they are going to test on concepts that not everybody uses in their day-to-day work. But the exams are infinitely easier and more useful to your career if you have worked with them as opposed to having read about them.
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[itdaddy]

Hey jsprague

what you mean MCSE is going away? then why should i study MCSE 2003
if it is going away?
it is 2006 do you think in 3 years MCSE 2k3 will hold value?

thanks
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IT DADDY
A+, MCP, CCNA
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WIP:MCSE, BSCS grad 2010....
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[rowdymon]

[shiva33]

it's sad to see things that are happening in south east asia.
MCSE as a certificate has no value at all here. the corporates are just employing on the basis of no of years of experience.

the only problem here is guys like me who genuinely worked hard to get certified are at a disadvantage.

i think it's time that MICROSOFT does something to the format of the exams. somethin like RHCE exams..

that would eliminate all this chaeting

[itdaddy]

To add to the this, the reason the big companies in India (south east asia)
go for the experienced in years vs MCSE certs is cause there is so many
fake papered engineers. that is what freaks me out here.
i see some jobs with MCSE but see it being affected by all the brain dumps
but most importantly by the skill level of these MCSEs.

I know thee are MCSEs with great skills but i have read alot on this site
and most MCSEs NT/2000/2003 on this site seem to have had a lot of experience; some young but they seem to have had college/experience
with the systems. but there is so much to Microsoft products so many tools so many things; you might not discover what else it can do years later; Problems require solutions and sometimes the problems dont arise that often; that is why working for peanuts in a IT business who say
is like a PC repair shop but for serverrs and MS$ systems get the real hands on; the more probelms the more you are require to sovle. thus
building your little bag of tricks and learning the nature of the beast(systems) i read all the time these young guys getting MCSE no life and
say they understand it all! I bew A+ test aways but i cannot say i understand it all. i can handle any situation. i may fix the probelm but on a different level. but did i really fix the actual problem? funny about computers; you can fix things at different levels. Like medicine or drugs from doctors; it rids of symptoms but did it cure the person of the real problem. yeah it looks good and fixes the temprorary. So i think MCSE and certs and skills and jobs is a crap shooot. Everyone is different you just have to pay your dues, work anything to yoru advantage and scope your area out. when it India pay your dues get your experience and
play play play and i do believe the Good Lord lets us reap what we sow!
but i love this Tech forum. all you dudes are cool and smart!
if we stick together, we can become a strong brother hood!
thanks so much for giving me inspiriation and hope. You dudes rock!

itdaddy;D

ps not sure what i was saying just ventiing myself
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IT DADDY
A+, MCP, CCNA
Asst Network Admin, Credit Union
WIP:MCSE, BSCS grad 2010....
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